**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 4 11:24:44 2001
11:24:44 --> RobertFitzsimons (bob@194.125.56.12) has joined #jos
11:25:06 --- RobertFitzsimons has changed the topic to: The JOS Project
11:25:09 --- RobertFitzsimons sets mode +t
11:25:14 --- RobertFitzsimons sets mode +n
12:26:18 --> fooz (walker@adsl-63-206-48-26.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) has joined #jos
12:26:33 Hello fooz.
12:26:40 Hello
12:28:02 Is there still a lot of activity in the JOS project?
12:28:44 I just found out about it a little while ago, heh
12:29:21 A far amount, we are still trying to reach critical mass of functionality.
12:29:41 cool
12:29:42 Once we have that developer should grow quite quickly.
12:31:44 I was looking for Java stuff and came across jos.org and was like "cooooool" heh
12:32:41 Yes, it should be very cool to have an OS running everything in Java. ;)
12:32:45 I tried to compile JJOS, but I don't run Linux and my native binary format isn't ELF, so it didn't get too far
12:33:44 What are you using? Windows?
12:33:54 no, OpenBSD
12:34:27 What does OpenBSD use as it's native binary format? aout?
12:34:33 a.out I think
12:34:43 nasm only generates ELF output
12:34:59 and I couldn't figure out how to build an i386-elf cross gcc without too much trouble
12:36:00 JJOS isn't realy being maintained any more.
12:36:04 ah
12:36:13 so what's the current kernel?
12:37:05 Hopefully it'll be my kernel, RJK. But it hasn't been release yet. But you can use the Linux Kernel.
12:38:58 I'll have to give RJK a try later then
12:39:02 The JVM teaseme hasn't been fully ported to work with RJK. I'm going to work on it today.
12:40:07 RJK, is ready to be released, but I have to sort out the licensing stuff first.
12:41:07 I'm actually pretty new to java in general, I've been spending my time coding with it and trying to learn it. It's a nice language
12:41:44 Yes, I wish I got to use it more at work.
12:42:48 OpenBSD's java situation isn't very fun, but some people are working on that.. I added an OpenBSD section to the dev tools page in the wiki
12:44:28 Yes, the BSD base OS's do miss out sometimes.
12:46:06 I wish there was more development on Kaffe, since it seems to be portable to everything
12:48:02 --> jewel (jewel@pta-dial-196-31-186-139.mweb.co.za) has joined #jos
12:48:24 Hi jewel.
12:48:40 hey all
12:50:15 who is fooz ?
12:50:23 hi
12:50:27 I am me
12:51:22 * jewel is lagged
12:52:37 So, Robert, it sounds like you have exciting news about RJK?
12:53:51 Yes, it basically ready to go, though I still want to get my company to sign a release on it first.
12:54:11 jewel: I just learned there was a #jos channel on OPN, so I stopped by, since I'm a OPN regular anyway
12:55:21 fooz: have you been interested in JOS for a while?
12:55:34 A short while, I just found out about it
12:55:52 cool, have you tested it with teaseme?
12:56:03 no, what's teaseme?
12:56:13 oops, that was for Robert
12:56:21 teaseme is one of the JOS projects
12:56:36 I working on it now.
12:56:42 it's a JVM modified to support Java processes and run in unusual environments
12:57:43 BTW Robert, I cleared up the problem with the kernel module not installing
12:57:53 I had changed the optimisation flag for that build
12:58:14 which meant the compiler wasn't inlining the strcat, strcpy ... stuff (also inb, outb etc)
12:58:30 RobertFitzsimons: Are you going to steal some of the linux kernel code for the string functions?
12:59:46 I didn't really have any plans to add those functions.
13:00:20 Ok
13:00:43 We can just put them in the vm/sys_rjk_kernel/ dir
13:01:20 Yes, the idea with the kernel interface is to keep it as simple as possible.
13:05:23 is RJK native or an interface for linux?
13:05:46 Robert wrote a kernel interface (kinterface)
13:06:04 RJK is an implementation of a kernel interface, so it could be ported to work with the Linux Kernel.
13:06:06 That we intend to wrap around the linux kernel, his RJK kernel and whatever else needs to be wrapped
13:06:59 ok
13:07:28 I'll make a BSD implementation Heh
13:07:45 Hehe
13:07:52 could be done
13:08:32 Yeah, that's the idea.
13:08:40 what class lib do most JOS people tend towards? Sun, classpath, kaffe?
13:08:43 I was actually quite interested in picobsd at one stage
13:09:03 fooz: we only support classpath with teaseme
13:09:31 classpath in CVS has some strange issues, they didn't seem to commit everything
13:10:01 fooz: what did you notice was missing?
13:10:08 include/config.h.in
13:10:19 actually, everything in include/
13:10:19 fooz: I'm puzzled about java.awt.Event
13:10:27 hmm
13:10:31 oh, and java.util.zip.*
13:10:59 missing?
13:11:00 but that seems to be missing from the tarball too, while include/* exists in the tarball
13:11:18 AWT and zip support haven't been finished yet.
13:11:20 There is a pure java impl of java.util.zip
13:11:31 we haven't packaged it yet, but it all works
13:11:46 * fooz has started implementing java.util.zip just now, darn, someone beat him to it ;)
13:13:32 there's at least 3 implementations of any given thing in Java, heh
13:13:51 it's pretty crazy
13:15:36 that's open source for you
13:16:17 well actually that's software in general
13:18:06 classpath cvs is missing include/*.in which autoconf needs to make the configure script. for some reason, *.in is in the cvsignore file.. the rest of the files there look like JNI files made by javah
13:20:56 I've been trying to get it to build under Kaffe, but kaffe is jdk 1.1/1.2, and classpath was missing a few parts, like java.util.zip.. which I just started implementing. Looks like JCraft just added a 'JZlib' and the GCJ people have an implementation as well, heh
13:22:19 It's quite amazing
13:22:27 JZlib and jazzlib were written at the same time
13:22:34 both are pure java zlib impls
13:22:53 the GCJ one is native code (just zlib)
13:23:04 I downloaded weirdx a few days ago, but I didn't see jzlib then
13:23:28 well, on the gcj mailing list it says that gcj's is all java, except for 2 classes, deflate and inflate I think
13:23:58 which I can understand, those would be the most difficult to do in java probably
13:24:07 hmm, yes, but the actual compression stuff is native
13:25:11 I'm just trying to find any decent open source java environment, because running blackdown under linux emul causes crashes and it's slow
13:25:12 :/
13:25:20 kaffe's class libs are too old
13:25:31 emul?
13:25:36 yes
13:25:42 I use OpenBSD
13:25:50 right
13:26:10 I can use blackdown and freebsd jdk under emulation, but neither one's very good
13:26:34 for instance, I can't compile JNI stuff and use it with Blackdown, because linux uses ELF and OpenBSD uses a.out
13:26:39 I'm writing a JVM called kissme (sister of teaseme), but it's not ready for production
13:27:31 well, I think Kaffe makes a pretty good JVM, its class lib is just in the dark ages
13:27:54 does Kaffe have the collections stu??
13:27:56 stuff
13:28:14 I don't know
13:28:37 Isn't OpenBSD going to switch to ELF?
13:28:46 some day heh
13:28:50 but it's not elf right now
13:28:56 some archs are, but not i386
13:34:05 i need to find something nobody's written yet, every time I start on something, I find out it's already been done
13:34:05 Maybe you need to work on getting the cross compiler working again. RJK also uses elf binaries.
13:35:07 jewel, what is the kspinlock code used for? I.e. when not building with RJK.
13:36:29 I use it in the other builds
13:36:37 I'll do an a.out port heh, it'll be easier
13:36:46 it is used as part of a more complex lock
13:39:28 Ok, I'd rather not include the code like that, any ideas on how we can rewrite it?
13:39:44 http://www.jython.org/
13:40:02 The RJK build/link process has changed a bit and isn't really the same as before.
13:40:16 You'ld rather not include that code in teaseme?
13:41:01 How is the build breaking / not working?
13:41:08 Yes. It's a portability thing.
13:42:04 Well I need it in the linux kernel build too
13:42:12 We could rename the functions
13:42:18 But I need those lock impls
13:42:48 Let me try and rewrite the code to use the native kernel spinlocks.
13:44:10 Which ones? The ones we looked at last time do nothing on single processor builds
13:46:07 The kernel interface has been changed to use a function pointer structure (like JNI) to call the funtions. So the fucntions aren't declared in kinterface any more.
13:46:53 later
13:46:55 <-- fooz (walker@adsl-63-206-48-26.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) has left #jos
13:46:59 You could declare them yourself, but it and maintance issue of keeping the files up-do-date as the RJK version is updated.
13:47:17 .. it is an ..
13:47:33 Ah ok
13:47:59 Let me rather move them into sys_linux_kernel
13:48:10 but I'll use the RJK functions for the RJK build
13:48:15 Move what?
13:48:57 I'll copy your old impl for the sys_linux_kernel locking code
13:49:18 Ok.
13:53:40 Should the teaseme.o file be 600KB?
13:55:58 Also what was the problem with the str* functions, it seems to be working for me?
13:56:44 Mine is 200K
13:57:00 The problem occurs when you do an 'insmod ...'
13:57:08 If the insmod works, you don't have the problem
13:57:24 This is with the RJK build.
13:57:28 The .makemeKernel in CVS is fixed (put it in about 20 minutes ago)
13:58:13 Let me see how big the teaseme.o is with RJK
13:58:56 Oops I've broken it ..
14:00:41 The build is breaking when it enounters prototypes in jni.h with a variable number of arguments
14:01:15 Which build? Linux Kernel?
14:01:47 RJK build, I needed to include
14:02:04 It's aready included by kinterface.h.
14:02:43 kimplementation.h
14:03:02 Where is size_t declared?
14:03:15 Sorry it defined to be part of the kinterface.
14:03:31 size_t isn't declared.
14:03:56 Hmm, where does it come from normally?
14:04:46 probably stdlib.h
14:05:31 I think it's stddef.h.
14:07:04 Where is eprintf defined in teaseme?
14:07:13 I can't find stddef.h
14:07:40 It's probably in vm/teaseme_print.h
14:08:23 It's a compiler specific header, have a look in /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-linux//include .
14:10:02 I found it, but I don't understand that code!
14:11:35 size_t isn't used by RJK, but a "typedef kint size_t;" might work.
14:13:48 I got somewhere.
14:13:51 My teaseme.o is 356K
14:13:59 ----------------------------------------
14:13:59 classfile_tester loaded
14:13:59 debug: JOSPROCESS_init
14:14:38 I now need to add rjk vm support to teaseme.
14:14:41 What happened?
14:14:48 BRB, gone to get food.
14:15:09 cool
14:15:49 I'll help you with that, I think I'll start with the kdebug (or I assume you just did that)
14:16:01 Hmm, let me look at kthread
14:25:47 --> jewel_ (jewel@pta-dial-196-31-186-139.mweb.co.za) has joined #jos
14:28:52 <-- jewel has quit (Ping timeout for jewel[pta-dial-196-31-186-139.mweb.co.za])
14:29:31 I'm back.
14:29:50 Hello
14:30:02 Did you put the kthread stuff into vm/teasme_print.h?
14:30:05 argh
14:30:11 I mean kdebug
14:30:15 Yes.
14:30:37 should I put in the kthread calls wherever a thread is spawned?
14:30:48 Let me send you a the lastest version of RJK.
14:31:04 that would be great
14:31:18 Have you spoken to your employer about it?
14:33:14 No not yet, I don't know if I should just come up with something for them to sign or just talk to them about it.
14:35:10 What does your contract say about stuff like that?
14:36:03 Nothing, I didn't sign it. ;)
14:37:58 When I first joined the company there was a very simple contract, but I was given a new one a few months ago which I never signed. It had something that would effect the code I wrote.
14:41:11 But you were expected to sign it?
14:41:21 (They might be under the impression you've signed it)
14:41:49 Yes, I do need to get back to them about it.
14:42:08 I think just write them a short note about it, mentioning that you've done it in your spare time and that it isn't related to your work for them
14:46:04 I'll work on it today and talk to them tommorow.
14:46:20 This is so cool: http://www.jcraft.com/jorbis/
14:48:24 Yes, I waiting for the XMMS version in Debian to get support for ogg files and then I'll convert all my MP3's.
14:51:33 It does already (in woody)
14:51:38 but it's not good code
14:51:46 the beta 4 is much better
14:52:01 I found out why the file is so big, it looks like a lot of the standard libraries are being include in the file.
14:52:10 Is that unstable or testing?
14:56:03 woody is testing, but I think it's in both
14:56:31 in your build, but not in mine?
15:02:25 got the new version
15:02:57 mutt's interface sucks
15:03:29 Yeah, but it uses vi as it's editor.
15:03:52 No I mean the rest of it
15:03:55 Like the attachment menu
15:04:01 (I use emacs with it anyway)
15:08:17 Yeah, I get bitten by the attachment menu all the time.
15:09:44 I'm going to add the string functions or some of them anyway.
15:10:34 Also it looks like malloc is used in vm/garbage.c should that not be sys_malloc?
15:15:59 let me check
15:16:27 yes
15:16:34 I'll change it in CVS
15:31:28 Ok, are there many changes needed to teaseme with the new style interface?
15:33:03 Did you see what I put in util/kspinlock.c ?
15:33:10 No, not so far.
15:33:39 No, the changes are that big.
15:33:52 It's just a copy of the file?
15:34:39 Almost
15:34:53 But I think I'm using that in the user-space build too
15:35:58 But for that to work, those methods : bit_test_and_set etc
15:36:07 must be in kinterface.h
15:38:11 What don't you just use the katomic functions directly?
15:38:30 I could
15:38:35 Not much difference
15:42:34 I'm going to be away for about an hour
15:42:58 I'll try make sure I'm back by 7 (5 GMT)
15:43:15 Ok.
15:43:54 When I come back I'ld like to apply your patches to teaseme
15:44:13 and see if I can boot it with RJK
15:45:09 Will I commit the changes to CVS?
15:46:38 Urm
15:46:49 I've made some changes to CVS in the meantime
15:47:02 But you should be able to commit without conflicts
15:47:19 Yes, please commit them
15:47:23 Ok.
15:48:44 see you a bit later
15:48:50 Bye for now.
17:07:35 --> jdunrue (JDU@cpe-66-1-230-214.co.sprintbbd.net) has joined #jos
17:07:41 greetings, all
17:07:52 Hello jdunrue.
17:08:14 how are things going?
17:08:41 Robert, you might not recognize my e-mail address, but I'm the guy working on JOSDI.
17:08:59 Yeah, I just checked. ;)
17:09:25 Things are going well, jewel is away for awhile.
17:09:49 John sent me a copy of your kernel code. I haven't looked at it except to boot it :-)
17:10:03 He gave me a copy of your boot image, too, obviously.
17:11:00 How far along are you with RJK now?
17:11:01 Yeah, that's fine. I hope to make a public release soon.
17:13:09 The basic functionality it done, interrupts, ioports, threads, linear/virtual memory, timers. It just needs to be cleaned up and documented.
17:14:17 be back in a second
17:14:25 <-- jewel_ has quit (bbiam)
17:15:04 --> jewel (jewel@pta-dial-196-31-186-139.mweb.co.za) has joined #jos
17:15:11 Hi, John :-)
17:15:23 ah, hello guys
17:15:31